The Right Mindset for Success with Carol Dweck

An interview with Carol Dweck by Sarah Green Carmichael

You may wonder why some people reach their potential while other people—who are just as talented—don’t. In this interview, former HBR editor Sarah Green Carmichael explores that question by digging into the science of persistence and praise with Carol Dweck, Stanford professor and the author of Mindset: The New Psychology of Success.

Sarah Green Carmichael: Your research suggests that talented people who find success often have a growth mindset. What is a growth mindset?

Carol Dweck: Let me start by defining a fixed mindset. A fixed mindset is when people believe their basic qualities—their intelligence, talents, abilities—are fixed traits. They have a certain amount, and that’s that. But other people have more of a growth mindset. They believe that even basic talents and abilities can be developed over time through effort, experience, mentorship, and so on. And these are the people who go for it. They’re not always worried about how smart they are, how they’ll look, what a mistake will mean. Instead, they want to challenge themselves and grow.

Most of us never intend to have a fixed mindset. How does someone fall into that trap?

Sometimes, because of past success, someone may fall into a fixed mindset. They did well in school, were voted “most likely to succeed,” earned promotions and leadership titles swiftly. They may have believed all the hype, the idea that they just “have it.” And they may become afraid of making mistakes and of tarnishing their image. Because they are fearful of venturing out of their comfort zone, they may not take risks or develop the abilities they’re capable of.

In contrast, you may see people you thought were not likely to succeed, and they’ve done amazing things. These are the people who maybe didn’t have an image to uphold, didn’t feel the weight of other people’s expectations, and just followed their interests or values and developed their abilities.

Can we get into this mindset at any time? For instance, if you become CEO of a company, say, at 45 or 55, can you suddenly find yourself falling into that trap?

It’s possible. Many people have told me that when they were promoted into a prestigious position, they suddenly felt like, “Now I have to have all the answers. Now, my period of growth is over. I have to be a fully mature person who knows everything.” So yes, at any point, you can fall into that trap. People who become CEOs suddenly feel they have to be gods and goddesses, not people who say, “Gee, I don’t know. Let’s talk about it. Let’s think about it. Let’s feel our way through this problem.”

How can we ensure that we stay in or encourage the growth mindset if we recognize that that’s not where we’re most comfortable?

We have to keep in mind the hallmarks of a growth mindset. In a growth mindset, challenges are exciting rather than threatening. Instead of thinking, Oh, I’m going to reveal my weaknesses, you say, Wow, here’s a chance to grow. In a growth mindset, you’re focused on the processes that you engaged in to bring about your successes—and the processes you engaged in that may have created your failures. You can learn from them and do better the next time. If you find yourself sinking into fixed-mindset thinking, afraid of challenges, or worrying about the outcome rather than the process, try to think about all the growth potential in following an opportunity, even if it’s out of your comfort zone. And find eager collaborators to work with you on the project! You can support each other’s growth mindset.

If you react to a setback defensively, wanting to hide it or make excuses for it, you’re probably in a fixed mindset. In the fixed mindset, you’re focused on the outcome. Will I look good? Will I live up to my reputation? Will people think I’m brilliant? Instead, ask “What can I learn from this experience that can help me go forward next time?”

Can you share more about what your research has shown about praising process instead of talent or ability?

We’ve done a lot of work showing that praising someone’s talent can put them into a fixed mindset. The whole self-esteem movement taught us, erroneously, that praising intelligence, talent, and abilities would foster self-confidence. But we’ve found it often backfires. People who are praised for talent may now worry about taking on the next hard task and not looking talented, thereby tarnishing their reputation for brilliance. Instead, they may stick to their comfort zone and get defensive when they hit setbacks.

So what should we praise? The effort, strategies, doggedness, persistence, grit, and resilience people show in the face of obstacles. That bouncing back when things go wrong and knowing what to try next. I think a huge part of promoting a growth mindset in the workplace is to convey those values of process—to give feedback, to reward people for engaging in the process, and not just a successful outcome. Ultimately, good process leads to good outcomes.

I wanted to ask you about the flip side of that: negative feedback. Say you’ve worked on a project that has come up short. In those situations, there’s a natural tendency to say, “But we worked really hard on it!” But that doesn’t matter; the product still isn’t good enough. What’s a better way to have that kind of interaction?

That kind of conversation is really important. The person who’s giving the feedback needs to focus on the process and the progress (or lack of it), not just the effort. Everyone’s putting—or believing they’re putting—in a lot of effort. They need to note how they engaged in the process, maybe as a team, what strategies they tried, how they gauged when and whether those strategies were being successful, whether they were sensitive enough to change strategies when they were starting to get the negative feedback. Discuss how they went forward, how they corrected themselves, why in the end it might not have worked, and what they might do differently next time.

One CEO I talked to said that he rewards value added—being able to put knowledge and skills back into the company, even when a project itself has not been successful.

What do you mean by that—putting knowledge and skills back into the company?

What did a team or person learn from an effort, even when it didn’t work? Many successful people—Einstein, Thomas Edison—have said they’ve learned more from their failures than from their successes. So many major breakthroughs came after a number of huge failures that provided learning experiences. You’re not going to reward someone just because they failed, obviously. But what did the journey teach them that will help them and others in the company become successful next time?

As people are engaging in a process or project, they’re monitoring what worked and what didn’t with an eye toward the future. And the more they can feed that back into the company to make it more a communal learning experience, the more that is reward-worthy.

CAROL DWECK is professor at Stanford University and author of Mindset: The New Psychology of Success. SARAH GREEN CARMICHAEL is a former executive editor at Harvard Business Review.